In The Matter Of:

EPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES VS

IGHTS IN AND TO THE WATERS OF BUENA VISTA VALLEY

July 31, 2024

Capitol Reporters

628 E. John St # 3

Carson City, Nevada 89706

775 882-5322

Original File 073124 water_1.txt

Min-U-Script® with Word Index

1 STATE OF NEVADA

2 DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES

3 DIVISION OF WATER RESOURCES

4 BEFORE MELISSA FLATLEY, HEARING OFFICER

5 ---oOo---

9 IN THE MATTER OF THE DETERMINATION

OF THE RELATIVE RIGHTS IN AND TO THE

10 WATERS OF BUENA VISTA VALLEY

HYDROGRAPHIC BASIN NO. 10-129,

11 PERSHING AND CHURCHILL COUNTIES,

NEVADA.

15 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

16 PUBLIC HEARING

17 WEDNESDAY, JULY 31, 2024

18 CARSON CITY, NEVADA

21 REPORTED BY: CAPITOL REPORTERS

Certified Shorthand Reporters

22 BY: CHRISTY Y. JOYCE, CCR

Nevada CCR #625

23 628 E. John Street #3 Carson City, Nevada 89706

24 (775)882-5322

CAPITOL REPORTERS (775) 882-5322

1 A P P E A R A N C E S

3 For the Claimants:

4 THERESE STIX, ESQ.

CAITLIN R. SKULAN, ESQ.

5 Schroeder Law Offices, PC 10615 Double R Boulevard Suite 100

6 Reno, Nevada 89521

8 Adam Sullivan, Nevada State Engineer

9 Melissa Flatley, Esq.

Chief Administrative Law Judge

Jared McCrum, 11 Supervising Technical Specialist

12 James Henson, Hearing Section Analyst

13 Gabrielle Souza, Adjudication section

14 Jennifer Kluever, Adjudication section

15 Chad Welling, Chief of the Well Drilling and

16 Adjudication sections

1 I N D E X

2 WITNESS PAGE

3 JAMES ESTILL

4 Direct Examination by Ms. Stix 12

5 Examination by Mr. McCrum 36

6 WILLIAM PRICE

7 Direct Examination by Ms. Stix 39

8 Examination by Hearing Officer Flatley 64

9 Examination by the State Engineer 66

10 SALVADOR GALINDO

11 Direct Examination by Ms. Skulan 75

12 LAURIE PEARCE PRICE

13 Direct Examination by Ms. Skulan 85

14 Examination by Hearing Officer Flatley 118

15 Examination by the State Engineer 120

1 WEDNESDAY, JULY 31, 2024, 9:00 A.M.

2 ---oOo---

3 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Good morning, Everyone.

4 Today is July 31st, 2024. My name is Melissa Flatley. I'm

5 the chief administrative law judge and I'll be the hearing

6 officer for today's hearing of objections pursuant to NRS

7 533.150 in the matter of the determination of the relative

8 rights in and to the waters of Buena Vista Valley located

9 within the Central Region Hydrographic Basin 10-129, Pershing

10 and Churchill Counties, Nevada.

11 And, we have a lot of people to make appearances, 12 so I'll start with you, Ms. Stix, and then we'll just go

13 around the room. So just state your name and who you're

14 representing.

15 MS. STIX: Good morning. I'm Therese Stix with

16 Schroeder Law Offices. My co-counsel, Caitlin Skulan, is

17 also here with me today. We're representing the Galindos and

18 Estill.

19 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Thank you very much and

20 good morning.

21 MS. STIX: Good morning.

22 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: And we'll start down

23 here at this end with Division staff.

24 MS. SOUZA: Good morning. I'm Gabrielle Souza.

1 I'm part of the adjudication section.

2 MS. KLUEVER: Hi. My name is Jennifer Kluever.

3 I'm a part of the adjudication section as well.

4 MR. WELLING: Good morning. Chad Welling. I'm

5 the chief of our adjudication section.

6 THE STATE ENGINEER: Adam Sullivan, Nevada State

7 Engineer.

8 MR. HENSON: James Henson, hearing section

9 analyst.

10 MR. MCCRUM: Jared McCrum, supervising technical

11 specialist in the hearing section.

12 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: All right. Thank you.

13 Just as a little bit of background and overview, 14 the preliminary order of determination in this matter was

15 signed on September 6th, 2023. There were objections to that

16 order filed by Mr. Estill and the Bureau of Land Management

17 on November 3rd, 2023, and by the Galindos on November 6th, 18 2023.

19 The notice for this hearing was sent out on April

20 12th, 2024.

21 On July 15th, 2024, pursuant to a verbal request

22 that the BLM had made for additional time, they waived their

23 appearance at the hearing. The State Engineer will consider

24 the BLM's objections without submission of further evidence.

1 And then on July 24th, I received the joint

2 pretrial memorandum from the Galindos and Estill and the

3 motion with the late-submitted exhibit, which I will, of

4 course, grant. I'm going to redo the order a little bit, but

5 I'll sign it and give you a copy.

6 So Exhibit 41 will be added to the exhibit list.

7 And I have the hard copy and the copy that was e-mailed. So

8 thank you for that.

9 As far as organizing today's hearing, did you

10 have any idea on how you plan to proceed, Ms. Stix?

11 MS. STIX: Yes. So we're going to start with the

12 Estill case and we will first call Mr. Estill and then

13 followed by Mr. Price and so that's kind of our order. And

14 then this afternoon, or whenever we're done, Galindo and

15 we'll start with Mr. Salvador Galindo and then followed by

16 Ms. Pearce Price.

17 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: All right. Thank you.

18 Like we talked about, my hope is that we can

19 finish in one day. We've had some scheduling issues come up.

20 So, if we don't finish today, we won't have the full day

21 tomorrow. But just keep that in mind. I already addressed

22 the motion.

23 I received exhibits from both the Galindos and

24 Estill. I just want to make sure that I have all of them.

1 So for Estill I have 1 through 41. And then for the

2 Galindos, I have 1 through 50.

3 MS. SKULAN: That's correct.

4 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Thank you, Ms. Skulan.

5 And then the State Engineer in the notice of hearing

6 provided -- identified three exhibits, which I will make sure

7 is included in the record. And, when we send the record to

8 the district court, they get everything. So, even if I don't

9 identify it as an exhibit in this hearing, they're going to

10 have copies of the objections, the claims that we -- that

11 were initially filed that the State Engineer considered. So

12 the record won't be limited to just these exhibits. But, for

13 the purposes of this hearing, these are the exhibits.

14 MS. STIX: Okay. Hearing Officer, so I would

15 assume that would include, like, our witness list and summary

16 and all of that, too?

17 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Correct. The

18 pretrial -- The prehearing memorandum will be part of it. So

19 as examples.

20 MS. STIX: Okay.

21 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: By statute and in the

22 notice of hearing, I broke down how the costs for the hearing

23 would be divided. So the appearance cost for the court

24 reporter and the cost of transcribing the portion consisting

1 of comments by the State Engineer or the public at the

2 conclusion of the hearing are shared equally and then each

3 objecting party bears pro rata their share. Do you have any

4 issue with any common time, like this time, being split

5 equally between the two parties?

6 MS. STIX: No.

7 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: I just wanted to

8 confirm that. Thank you.

9 That's all I have for preliminary matters. Do

10 you have any housekeeping-type issues you want to cover

11 before we start?

12 MS. STIX: Yes. So on our exhibit list for

13 Estill, Exhibits 28 and 29 are actually 1893 as opposed to

14 1883. So that was it. I did have -- wanted to make sure

15 that our objections and all of that was entered, so we

16 already took care of that. So I think that was all of my

17 preliminary housekeeping.

18 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Okay. Well, you had

19 said you wanted to begin with Mr. Estill. Go ahead.

20 MS. STIX: Okay. So, we prepared a brief opening

21 statement, so we'll do that. Also, Ms. Skulan is going to

22 take the lead in Galindo, so when we get there, we'll switch

23 places.

24 All right. So, for the opening statement for

1 Mr. Estill. James, who goes by Jim, Estill is the holder of

2 16 vested proofs of appropriation for stock water in the

3 Buena Vista Valley adjudication. Regarding these vested

4 rights, the State Engineer's preliminary order of

5 determination, pages 49 through 65, made various findings and

6 determinations including on page 54, the State Engineer found

7 no connection between Springers and Robert Welsh, going on to

8 say that the State Engineer confirmed the chain of title from

9 Springers to Estill.

10 On page 56, the State Engineer also confirmed

11 that Mr. Estill is the authorized operator of the Copper

12 Kettle grazing allotment, relating to two of the vested

13 claims but then found that Mr. Estill was not the authorized

14 operator of the Rochester grazing allotment, which relates to

15 14 of Ms. Estill's vested claims.

16 On page 56, the State Engineer found insufficient

17 evidence to substantiate the vested claims for all the

18 surface water sources due to no connection between the

19 claimed initiator of the vested right, Mr. Welsh, and its

20 successor in interest, the Springers.

21 The State Engineer did find sufficient evidence

22 to support the one groundwater vested claim, which is V09788.

23 Because sufficient evidence was found on the groundwater

24 rights, we will not be addressing that one today.

1 The State Engineer made no findings related to

2 the scope of the surface water rights but did go through each

3 right to state what the claim was for, whether or not the

4 State Engineer visited the location and took measurements, 5 but again found no findings related to the scope and rejected

6 each of the stock water rights based on a chain of title

7 issue but not finding -- making any findings related to

8 scope.

9 The law in Nevada in Rand v. Filippini is such

10 that stock water rights on public lands do not need a chain

11 of title but rather need a chain of interest or possession.

12 In this case that is just what happened. The stock graziers

13 were utilizing the range since prior to 1881 and passed that

14 beneficial use of stock water from one public land grazier to

15 the next.

16 The evidence submitted in this adjudication and

17 presented today will show that Estill is the authorized

18 grazier with BLM for both Copper Kettle and Rochester grazing

19 allotment, that a chain of title is not required to show a

20 relation back to a predecessor's first beneficial use when

21 considering vested stock water rights on public lands, that

22 Estill's predecessors in interest began beneficially using

23 water at least as early as 1881 and that use continued to

24 present day.

1 Welsh and Springers were neighbors and both

2 grazed livestock in the Buena Vista Valley. Welsh grazing

3 land from east to west between Lovelock and the Welsh

4 spring -- or Welsh sheep camp canyon, which is today the

5 Anderson Ranch, where Mr. Estill has his home ranch. And

6 Springer grazing from north to south from Unionville down to

7 Fallon.

8 The evidence will show that even after the

9 inception of the Taylor Grazing Act and the BLM, the area

10 continued to be grazed in common by multiple permittees with

11 multiple based properties.

12 In summary, Mr. Estill is authorized to graze in

13 the Copper Kettle and Rochester allotments and should

14 received valid stock water rights for enough water for 1100

15 sheep and 385 cattle with a priority date, based on the

16 historical evidence, dating back to 1881, which has been

17 traced through Estill's chain of possession and authorization

18 and/or grazing permits to utilize the range.

19 Because of the State Engineer's findings that the

20 chain of title was unbroken between Springer and Estill, the

21 evidence presented today will focus on the chain of interest

22 and possession prior to Springer.

23 So, with that, we will call Mr. James Estill to

24 the stand.

1 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Thank you very much.

2 Good morning, Mr. Estill. If you could have a seat right at

3 the end of the table. The court reporter will be taking down

4 everything you say, so make sure you speak clearly and give

5 verbal responses rather than nodding or shaking your head.

6 THE WITNESS: Okay.

7 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Thank you. And I'll

8 have the court reporter swear you in.

9 (The witness was sworn in)

10 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Go ahead, Ms. Stix.

11 MS. STIX: Okay.

13 JAMES ESTILL

14 Called as a witness on behalf of the

15 Claimant, having been first duly sworn, 16 Was examined and testified as follows:

18 DIRECT EXAMINATION

19 By Ms. Stix:

20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Estill.

21 A. Good morning.

22 Q. Can you please tell us what your occupation is?

23 A. Cattle rancher.

24 (The court reporter interrupts)

1 THE WITNESS: E-s-t-i-l-l.

2 Q. (By Ms. Stix) How long have you been a rancher?

3 A. Most of my life with a couple of interruptions.

4 Q. Okay. And how long have you lived at what is

5 known as the Anderson Ranch?

6 A. Since 2005.

7 Q. Is Anderson Ranch sometimes referred to as Welsh

8 Sheep Camp Canyon?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And is the Anderson Ranch in Buena Vista Valley?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you tell us how the Anderson Ranch relates to

13 Churchill County versus Pershing County?

14 A. I have two grazing allotments. One is in

15 Churchill County, known as Copper Kettle, and one is in

16 Pershing County, known as Rochester. But it's operated as

17 one unit. It's unfenced.

18 Q. Is the Anderson Ranch proper, the private

19 property, is it just south of the boundary line in Buena

20 Vista Valley?

21 A. That's correct. It's in Churchill County.

22 Q. Okay. And you briefly touched on how your cattle

23 graze between Copper Kettle and Rochester. Is there any

24 fences or pastures that separate those out?

1 A. No, no. It's one large year-round unit. It's a

2 12 month -- I have a 12-month grazing permit.

3 Q. Okay. Can you turn to what's been marked as

4 Estill 41.

5 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: And, for our staff, I'm

6 uploading that to the Teams.

7 Q. (By Ms. Stix) Can you tell us what that is?

8 A. That is my copy of my grazing permit from BLM for

9 Copper Kettle and Rochester.

10 Q. Okay. How do you move cattle around in between

11 those two allotments?

12 A. I don't. They move their selves. Occasionally

13 I'll move cattle where I think they need to be for management

14 purposes. But they're free to go back where they were or

15 anywhere else the next day. It's open range.

16 Q. So there's no fences in between the two?

17 A. Nope.

18 Q. When you purchased the property were the cattle

19 grazing in the same way?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How did you obtain this BLM grazing permit?

22 A. When I purchased the Anderson Ranch, the BLM

23 transferred it to me.

24 Q. Did you have to sign a deed or just paperwork

1 with the BLM?

2 A. No. It was just paperwork with the BLM. As far

3 as I know, grazing allotments are not recorded in deeds.

4 Q. Were these -- Were these references to the Copper

5 Kettle and the Rochester grazing allotment on your deed?

6 A. I don't think -- I don't think the permit or

7 allotment was mentioned, just the range. The Springer range

8 was mentioned and the water rights in my deed.

9 Q. Okay. Did you file vested proofs of

10 appropriation with the Nevada Division of Water Resources in

11 the Buena Vista Valley?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And are those what's generally referred to as

14 Exhibits Estill 1 through 16?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Are all of these proofs of appropriation on

17 private land or public land or a combination?

18 A. Public land.

19 Q. Okay. Did you have any help drafting these

20 proofs of appropriation?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And what did that consist of?

23 A. I hired water engineers to help me. Dennis

24 Gephart was his name or is his name.

1 Q. And what did you and Dennis do?

2 A. Well, we measured the water and found the

3 locations and filled out the appropriate forms and submitted

4 them to this office.

5 Q. Okay. How did you figure out the locations?

6 A. GPS. And then Dennis knows how to measure

7 from -- We GPS'd corners, known corners. And he knows how to

8 create a map with a specific location from those known

9 corners and create the location.

10 Q. And about what year was it or how many years ago

11 did you do this work?

12 A. This is just a guess. I'm going to say 2006 to

13 ten, 2010, maybe. It's been a while.

14 Q. Okay. Do you remember what kind of GPS you used?

15 A. Yes. I used a Garmin GPS and Dennis has -- he

16 had a better one, more sophisticated. I don't know what it

17 was.

18 Q. Okay. And how did you take the measurements when

19 you visited these locations?

20 A. When I did it, some of them I could only access

21 horseback, so I made a dam, had a little pipe and a container

22 and a stop watch. And I measured the water. Some of the

23 larger ones Dennis had kind of a weird dam thing that he

24 brought and used that.

1 Q. All right. In supporting these vested rights did

2 you do any of the historical research yourself?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And what did that consist of?

5 A. I got records from the Churchill County Museum, 6 Churchill County Recorder, Pershing County Recorder, and

7 Humboldt County Recorders Office. And I researched

8 newspapers, articles on microfilm. And I got documents from

9 the -- I can't remember the name of the agency. The federal

10 agency that has Cadastral, the Cadastral surveys and

11 homestead applications on the Springer homestead. And I

12 could be leaving some out. It's been a few years. And I

13 went to a lot of places.

14 Q. Okay. About how many years ago did you do all of

15 this research?

16 A. Ten.

17 Q. Did you ever hire anyone to help you do the

18 historical research?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And who was that?

21 A. Ruth Danner from Winnemucca did research for me.

22 And, recently, Bill Price did research also.

23 Q. If you can turn to what's been marked as Estill

24 19. Is that the Danner report?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And how come you had her do this work after you

3 had spent so much time doing it yourself?

4 A. Because I filed vested water claims on the area

5 between White Cloud and Logan and I wanted to see if I could

6 also file on vested rights north of that area. And so I had

7 her look in to the history of the use north of Logan Spring.

8 And so that's what I asked her to do. And in her research

9 she did that and she also included some of the history down

10 to and south of Logan Spring as an additional benefit.

11 Q. Okay. Did you find her report useful?

13 Q. Okay. All right. We're going to briefly walk

14 through the vested proofs that you filed, so we're going to

15 start at what's been marked as Estill Exhibit 1. Okay. Can

16 you tell us what Exhibit 1 is?

17 A. Yeah. It's -- It's a filing we did on Hughes

18 Canyon Creek.

19 Q. Okay. And, for the record, that's V09780. Can

20 you tell us about any developments on this creek?

21 A. There is none. There is an old development at

22 the lower end of it. I think it's also -- It may be Saint

23 Claire Spring. It's a certificated right. But, the point of

24 diversion, there's a ditch about a hundred, 200 feet that

1 goes to a pond, sometimes does or doesn't have water in it, 2 depends on which way the creek is washed out.

3 Q. And, when you took the GPS location, was that at

4 the pond or where was that at?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. Okay. How do you get to the Hughes Canyon Creek

7 ditch and dam where this proof is located?

8 A. There is a very rough four wheel drive road to

9 it.

10 Q. Does it go right to this location or is it

11 nearby?

12 A. It goes right to it and crosses the spring bed, 13 the water flow area.

14 Q. And did you fill out this proof or did somebody

15 else?

16 A. This looks like Dennis filled this one out.

17 Q. Okay. And, so, the measurement taken that's

18 listed in this proof, is that something that you did or

19 Dennis did?

20 A. I don't remember. I would guess Dennis did it

21 because we could drive to it.

22 Q. Okay. Were you there when the measurement was

23 taken?

24 A. Yes.

1 Q. All right. Moving on to what's been marked as

2 Estill Exhibit 2 for V-9781, can you tell us what that is?

3 A. Yes. Our proof on Taylor Spring.

4 Q. And is there any developments on this spring?

5 A. Nope.

6 Q. How do you access this spring?

7 A. By foot or horseback.

8 Q. Is there any roads nearby?

9 A. About a half mile, mile away, there's a rough

10 four wheel drive road.

11 Q. Okay. And were you present when the measurement

12 was taken that's listed in this proof?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And, moving on to Exhibit Estill Number 3, which

15 is V-9782, can you tell us about this one?

16 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Before you answer, 17 Mr. Estill, Ms. Stix, if it helps, the State Engineer has

18 verified the accuracy of the information. We accept the

19 claims as filed for location and access and flow.

20 So, if you want, you won't have to go through

21 that for each of the claims.

22 MS. STIX: Okay. Thank you. Yes, I was not

23 clear because the preliminary order of determination made

24 statements but then made a finding only on other issues.

1 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: The only issue, and I

2 confirmed, is that possessory chain.

3 MS. STIX: Okay. So I will briefly go through

4 these a little bit. I just want to talk a little bit more

5 about some of the access and the other features.

6 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: All right. I just

7 wanted to let you know that you didn't have to belabor it.

8 MS. STIX: Thank you. Okay. Recalculating here.

9 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: I apologize for that.

10 MS. STIX: It's okay.

11 Q. (By Ms. Stix) Mr. Estill, can you turn to what's

12 been marked as Estill Exhibit 6 for V-9863 on New York Creek?

14 Q. Can you tell us about the development of this

15 spring or creek?

16 A. There's a pond at the mouth of the canyon. Water

17 runs in to the pond and overflows or runs on out.

18 MS. STIX: Hearing Officer Flatley, so on --

19 housekeeping, on some of these where the State Engineer said

20 that they made a visit but no measurement was found, would

21 you still like me to go through the measurement or are we

22 going to rely upon the measurements or the amount claimed in

23 the vested?

24 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Give me one moment.

1 All right. I had to confer, so thank you. If

2 you think there's information missing from the preliminary

3 order, then go ahead and cover it. So, if we didn't

4 include -- or if we made something that -- if we made a

5 finding contrary to what you think the evidence would

6 support, then you can compare that.

7 MS. STIX: Okay.

8 Q. (By Ms. Stix) Mr. Estill, for this vested that

9 we're speaking about, New York Creek, can you -- were you

10 present when the measurement was taken that's listed in the

11 vested proof?

12 A. Well, I don't recall, but I'm sure I was, because

13 either I did it myself or probably Dennis did this one

14 because it's -- you can drive to it.

15 Q. When you or Dennis did these measurements were

16 you guys together?

17 A. I was always with Dennis when he measured water

18 on the ranch.

19 Q. Okay. Are there any other features for this New

20 York Creek that you would like to tell us about?

21 A. Well, it's a historic water use place that's been

22 used and filed on by a lot of people for a long time. There

23 was a mine there, US Steel, they had some activity there.

24 Somebody filed to put in a stage stop and irrigate land.

1 That, as far as I could tell, was never followed up on or

2 completed. Dennis just found old maps where somebody tried

3 to do that with the water.

4 Q. Okay. Turning to Exhibit 19 at page 17. So

5 Exhibit 19 and then go to page 17 in that exhibit.

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. Did Ms. Danner include in her report information

8 about New York Canyon?

10 Q. And is it located on this page?

12 Q. Okay. And how do you access New York Creek

13 Canyon?

14 A. There's a pretty good dirt road to it from the

15 main Dago Pass Road. It's about a mile or a little more

16 maybe.

17 Q. And what is the difference between the creek and

18 the spring at this location?

19 A. The difference is the spring is where the water

20 starts and the creek is where it runs down the canyon.

21 Q. Can you tell out on the ground if there's a

22 different location for each? Because, in your vested you put

23 natural channel, but then there's some information about a

24 spring in that area.

1 A. Well, I don't recall. I would have to get my GPS

2 and a map and go right to the spot that we located as the

3 spring to find the exact spot. And then, you know, the cows

4 used to water all the way down as far as it runs in the

5 natural channel.

6 Q. Okay. Turning to what's been marked as Estill

7 Exhibit 7 for V-9884. Can you generally describe the

8 infrastructure at this location and how you access it?

9 A. Yes. It's just a couple hundred yards off the

10 Dago Pass Road and it's a large culvert is buried in the

11 ground with a pipe that comes out of it and goes to a

12 concrete water trough maybe 200 feet away, I guess.

13 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Mr. Estill, are you

14 saying Mandago Pass?

15 THE WITNESS: Dago Pass Road.

16 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Could you spell it, 17 please.

18 THE WITNESS: D-a-g-o.

19 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Thank you.

20 Q. (By Ms. Stix) Is Dago Pass Road a paved road?

21 A. Yes. It's -- On some maps, it's also referred to

22 as McKinney Pass, I think.

23 Q. All right. We're going to move on to Kitten

24 Springs and there's multiple Kitten Springs, so we're going

1 to talk about the one at Exhibit 8, which is marked Estill 8, 2 and that's V-9943. Can you tell us about this spring and the

3 location?

4 A. Yes. It's on the Kitten Springs Road, probably

5 two or three miles from the Dago Pass Road, and there's --

6 it's got complex of three or four springs that come together

7 and flow down the natural channel.

8 Q. Is this area heavily, like, marshy and dense

9 vegetation?

10 A. Some of it is. Along the road there's willows

11 and other big bushes in that area.

12 Q. Does the water actually surface and flow

13 downstream?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is there any evidence of historical features at

16 this location?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you describe those?

19 A. Well, there's an old rock fence. And, if you

20 look around in the brush, you can find boards or pieces of a

21 stove. There's a small wire enclosure that's still visible.

22 And it was used as a -- I understand it was used as a stage

23 stop and filed on for irrigation and stock use at various

24 times in the past history. It was used quite a bit.

1 Q. Is that information in part based on some of the

2 findings in the Danner report?

4 Q. Okay. And how do you access this location?

5 A. Kitten Springs Road turn-off off the Dago Pass

6 Road.

7 Q. Has the Kitten Springs Road always been there?

8 A. For a long time, yes. It was an old stagecoach

9 route.

10 Q. Okay. All right. We're going to turn to --

11 well, a general question about the other Kitten Springs. Are

12 any of the Kitten Springs developed?

13 A. No. They may have been in the past, like many of

14 these springs, but the improvements almost always are

15 destroyed by horses.

16 Q. Are you talking about your horses or --

17 A. Nope, nope, nope. BLM's horses.

18 Q. Okay. All right. So moving on to exhibit what's

19 been marked as Estill 9 for V-9944. Can you tell us about

20 this spring and about any improvements on it?

21 A. Logan Springs is a spring complex similar to

22 Kitten Springs and the main spring is developed -- was

23 developed until the horses destroyed it. And then there's

24 several other springs along in the near vicinity that are not

1 developed.

2 Q. Okay. And how do you access the Logan Springs

3 complex?

4 A. From the Buena Vista well, you can drive about

5 halfway to them. And, there's an old road clear up to them, 6 but you can't -- it's washed out. You got to go horseback or

7 foot the last mile or half mile.

8 Q. At all of these spring locations is there water

9 on top of the ground or what does it look like where the

10 water surfaces?

11 A. Well, yes, when we measured them, there was

12 certainly always water. And, this year, there certainly is.

13 On a dry year, some of these, they don't flow a lot and can

14 dry up when we have a series of drought years.

15 Q. Okay. And, for all of these Logan Springs

16 locations that are listed in your proofs, those were done by

17 GPS or with Mr. Dennis?

18 A. I -- I probably did all of those because he

19 couldn't access them by vehicle.

20 Q. Okay. And, when you went out there with your

21 GPS, could you just ride up to the location, take a GPS, and

22 ride away?

23 A. No. I would sit there under Dennis'

24 instructions. He told me I had to stay there for a long time

1 and let it do its thing and pick up the correct location.

2 Q. Okay. We're going to talk about Logan Springs

3 number six, which is Estill Number 13, Exhibit 13, and that's

4 V-9948. Can you tell us about the flow at this spring?

5 A. .002 cubic feet a second.

6 Q. And was it pooling or was it surfacing? How did

7 you know it was that amount of water?

8 A. Well, it's been so long, I don't remember doing

9 it. But it had to be flowing in order to get the

10 measurement.

11 Q. Okay. Is this, again, one of those springs that

12 on dry years it won't surface?

13 A. It's very possible.

14 Q. And how do you access Logan number six?

15 A. Horseback or foot.

16 Q. All right. We're going to turn to Estill Number

17 15 for V-10007. Can you tell us about the developments at

18 this spring?

19 A. Yes. There's a -- There was a pond built at one

20 time. It was an old cabin there that has fallen down and

21 some holes in the ground where people -- somebody was mining

22 and remnants of a fence that was around the origin where the

23 spring comes out of the ground and the pond. But horses have

24 destroyed all the improvements and it's just -- cattle just

1 use it to water in the natural channel now.

2 Q. And this is for Cabin Springs? It's Cabin

3 Springs; correct?

4 A. This is Cabin Springs, yes.

5 Q. And how do you get there?

6 A. Off a real rough four wheel drive road you can

7 drive to it.

8 Q. Okay. Looking at Big Ben Springs, which is

9 Exhibit Estill 16 for V-10008, can you tell us about that

10 one?

11 A. It's not improved and the cattle just use it in

12 the natural channel. And I -- I've never seen any remnants

13 of improvements in the past.

14 Q. Okay. And how do you access this one?

15 A. Off that same four wheel drive road that goes to

16 Cabin Spring. But then you have to walk or ride for a mile

17 or so.

18 Q. Okay. And did you take the measurement at this

19 location?

20 A. I'm sure I did.

21 Q. Okay. Are all of the vested claims that are --

22 And I know we didn't talk about each and every one of them.

23 But, the ones that are in Exhibits 1 through 16, those are

24 all on your Copper Kettle or south Rochester allotments?

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Okay. Have you filed any road rights of way to

3 access many of these springs?

4 A. Yes. I filed 2477 right of ways on -- to all my

5 water in both allotments.

6 Q. Okay. Do you agree or disagree with the

7 preliminary order of determination that found that you are

8 not the authorized user of the Rochester allotment?

9 A. I disagree.

10 Q. And, that's based on that you are the permit

11 holder; correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Okay. Do you agree or disagree that you need a

14 chain of title from Mr. -- between Mr. Welsh and Springer?

15 A. The question again?

16 Q. Poor question. So the preliminary order of

17 determination found that you didn't have a chain of title

18 between Mr. Welsh and Mr. Springer?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. Do you agree that you need one?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And why is that?

23 A. There may not be any place to get one, as it was

24 open range and everybody used it, and if somebody wanted to

1 use it, which many people did, you just take your livestock

2 out and use the grass and the water and work out your

3 differences with who ever is there the best way you can. And

4 that's what people did. And sometimes they were bought or

5 sold or sometimes they were traded or given away. There was

6 just no standard legal way to transfer those range or water

7 rights until as far as I know the Taylor Grazing Act.

8 Q. And, your research in to your grazing permit and

9 your BLM files, was there evidence of grazing in common with

10 multiple graziers?

12 Q. And about when did that occur?

13 A. Well, Welsh was the first name, and we have his

14 records. And then after him there was Taylor to the north

15 and the Kyle brothers and a guy named Salinas and Kennedy

16 were out there. Pitt, WC Pitt was out there. Multiple

17 users.

18 Q. Okay. Can you turn to Estill Exhibit 19 and go

19 to page 23.

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. Are these, like, pages 23 through about 38, are

22 those excerpts from your BLM grazing files?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do they show evidence that multiple graziers were

1 out there?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. Mr. Estill, is there anything else that

4 you would like us to draw attention to for your vested

5 proofs?

6 A. Well, it's -- it's clear to me that range was

7 used constantly by many graziers, historically, and it's

8 pretty hard -- it would be very difficult not -- for those

9 waters not to be used because they're so close together and

10 there's no fences. It's open range. And today my cows could

11 be in Unionville or halfway to Fallon. And they do drift a

12 lot. And so who ever was using that range in that general

13 area would have used those -- would have had to use those

14 waters and then moving there stock in and out of the country

15 to Fallon or Unionville or Lovelock, wherever they went.

16 Obviously they had no trucks and trailers. They would have

17 had to use those waters constantly as well.

18 MS. STIX: Thank you. I would ask that Exhibits

19 1 through 16 and 19 and 41 be admitted.

20 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: They will be admitted.

21 MS. STIX: Okay.

22 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Staff from the Division

23 may have questions. I'll look down the line here.

24 Mr. Estill, just to elaborate on the last

1 question that Ms. Ure had asked before summarizing

2 everything -- Sorry. Ms. Stix. Excuse me. You had said on

3 pages 23 through 28 of Exhibit 19 that those documents show

4 evidence of multiple graziers. Can you explain how you made

5 that conclusion?

6 THE WITNESS: Well, I see their names on page 23.

7 Marvin Meyer, he had the ranch just north of me. Star Peak I

8 think it is. And then Anderson is the bottom name on there.

9 Obviously my place. Do you want me to go through each of

10 them?

11 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: No. I just wanted some

12 examples, so when someone comes back to read the transcript

13 later on, they can see why you made that statement.

14 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Well, you can see the names

15 on these documents that they were trying to establish their

16 grazing area, I assume, for the Taylor Grazing Act to draw

17 the lines for the permits the BLM wanted -- the grazing

18 service wanted to issue.

19 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: And you're familiar

20 with the names, which is why you conclude that there are

21 graziers in that area?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes. And, also, the areas that are

23 mentioned.

24 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Thank you.

1 MS. STIX: Can I ask a follow-up?

2 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Yes.

3 Q. (By Ms. Stix) So, Mr. Estill, when you're

4 looking at Exhibit 19 on page 29.

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. And the paragraph does it say to graze in common

7 on federal range?

8 A. On page 29?

9 Q. Yes. The narrative in the second half, the

10 bottom half of the page.

11 A. Oh, yes. To graze in common on federal range, 12 correct.

13 Q. And is Buena Vista Valley indicated on that?

15 MS. STIX: Can I ask one more additional

16 question?

17 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Yes, you may.

18 Q. (By Ms. Stix) Mr. Estill, can you turn to

19 Exhibit Number 18.

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. Can you tell us where this came from?

22 A. This is a summary of Robert Welsh's possessory

23 claim taxes he paid. And I got this information from Mary

24 Korkeall at the Churchill County Museum.

1 Q. And when did you receive that information from

2 her?

3 A. I don't remember. Probably 2,000 -- I don't

4 know -- seven, eight, nine. I can't remember.

5 Q. And does this summary talk about Mr. Welsh as

6 well as Mr. Springer?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And are the books referenced here from the

9 Churchill County Museum books?

10 A. Yes. I have photocopies of -- They're very large

11 pages. And she photocopied them for me. And I believe

12 Mr. Price went and looked at them recently.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. And, I think they're still there, I'm sure.

15 MS. STIX: All right. Could we admit Exhibit 18

16 as well?

17 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Yes.

18 MS. STIX: All right. We have no further

19 questions.

20 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Thank you. If any come

21 to you after our questions, we'll come back to you.

22 Mr. McCrum, go ahead.

23 ///

24 ///

1 EXAMINATION

2 By Mr. McCrum:

3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Estill. How are you today?

4 A. Good. Good morning.

5 Q. Good, good. I just have a quick question about

6 the flow rates on the requested vested rights that you filed

7 with our office. Are those flow rates based off of your

8 measurements or are they based off of measurements from

9 people in the past that you have -- that you acquired that?

10 A. All of these vested rights I'm sure were mine or

11 Dennis, my agent.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. We didn't -- I don't think we used any previous

14 information we found on flow rates.

15 Q. And the measurements that you requested in your

16 vested claims are based off of your flow rates then?

18 MR. MCCRUM: Okay. Thank you.

19 MR. HENSON: I have a question for you, Counsel.

20 I don't disagree with you. I would just like you to

21 elaborate on Rand Property and Filippini, that you mentioned

22 that possession and/or chain of possession is adequate. If

23 you could just elaborate on that a little further, I think it

24 would be helpful.

1 MS. STIX: Yes. So the trial brief that we

2 submitted on stock water chain of interest also talks about

3 the Rand v. Filippini case. So, in that case, the Nevada

4 Supreme Court basically found that there's really no way to

5 do a chain of title through deed documents for water rights

6 that were first or claims that were first used on public land

7 and so they found that the chain of interest was sufficient

8 and that was based on if one person was out there grazing

9 cattle and then the next person grazing cattle. So it's

10 based on the grazing and the actual beneficial use of it, 11 which was later through Taylor Grazing Act, development of

12 BLM, and through the adjudication of the grazing allotment.

13 And now the BLM transfers those grazing permits

14 administratively in their office, so you go in and sign

15 forms.

16 Most of the time those -- the BLM permits are not

17 stated in deeds and a lot of people still don't identify the

18 water rights because, as we know, they transfer by an

19 appurtenance. And so really the only way to show the prior

20 existing use without, you know -- not trying to circumvent

21 title or deed documents necessarily, but there is none, 22 because it was public land and you just didn't need any.

23 So that's kind of the gist of the Filippini case.

24 We provided a copy of the Supreme Court's opinion attached to

1 our trial memorandum.

2 MR. HENSON: Okay. Perfect. Thank you.

3 Appreciate it.

4 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Okay. I don't think we

5 have anything else. Do you have any further questions now?

6 MS. STIX: I don't.

7 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: All right.

8 MS. STIX: Mr. Estill, thank you.

9 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Mr. Estill, thank you

10 for your time this morning.

11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

12 MS. STIX: Okay. We will call Mr. William Price

13 to the stand.

14 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Good morning, 15 Mr. Price.

16 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

17 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Could you state and

18 spell your name for the record, please.

19 THE WITNESS: My name is William F. Price, 20 W-i-l-l-i-a-m. F as in Frances. And P-r-i-c-e.

21 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: All right. Thank you, 22 Mr. Price. And I'll have the court reporter swear you in.

23 (The witness was sworn in)

24 MS. STIX: Go ahead and have a seat. Can we go

1 off the record for a second?

2 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Yeah. Do you want to

3 take a break?

4 MS. STIX: Sure.

5 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Okay. Ten. We'll come

6 back in ten minutes.

7 (Recess was taken)

8 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: We'll be back on the

9 record. Thank you, Mr. Price. And, Ms. Stix, go ahead.

10 MS. STIX: All right.

12 WILLIAM PRICE

13 Called as a witness on behalf of the

14 Claimant, having been first duly sworn, 15 Was examined and testified as follows:

17 DIRECT EXAMINATION

18 By Ms. Stix:

19 Q. Good morning, Mr. Price. Can you please -- I

20 would just remind you that even though we took a break you're

21 still under oath.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us what your occupation is?

24 A. I'm a professional --

1 (The court reporter interrupts)

2 A. I'm a professional land man and I'm also a

3 professional land surveyor and a Nevada state water rights

4 surveyor.

5 Q. And, is your curriculum vitae at Exhibit Estill

6 Number 17?

8 Q. Okay. Have you been qualified as an expert

9 before the Nevada State Engineer?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was that in the Pony Canyon adjudication?

13 Q. And the Diamond Valley adjudication?

15 MS. STIX: Without going through his CV, can

16 we -- I move to qualify him as an expert in water rights, 17 land and water rights surveying and mapping, historical land

18 research and property and water title.

19 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: I've been moving away

20 from qualifying experts, but we'll allow his testimony on

21 those areas, of course.

22 MS. STIX: Okay. Thank you.

23 Q. (By Ms. Stix) All right. Mr. Price, were you

24 hired by Mr. Estill related to the Buena Vista Valley

1 adjudication?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what were you hired to do?

4 A. He asked me to do whatever research is necessary

5 to respond to the results from the -- the determinations with

6 respect to his water rights in the preliminary order of

7 determination in the Buena Vista Valley.

8 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Mr. Price, I couldn't

9 even understand what you said. Did you get it?

10 THE COURT REPORTER: I got it.

11 HEARING OFFICER FLATLEY: Okay. I'm sorry. Just

12 make sure you're speaking to the court reporter.

13 MS. STIX: You don't have to look at me. You can

14 look at her.

15 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

16 Q. (By Ms. Stix) What sources of information did

17 you look at?

18 A. I looked at census records. I looked at tax

19 records from both Humboldt and Churchill County. I read

20 newspaper articles. I believe the -- all the sources are in

21 my report, but I don't have access to that.

22 Q. That's fine. How come you didn't look at

23 Pershing County?

24 A. Pershing County was created in 1918. And the

1 period of my research was between the inception of the State

2 of Nevada, essentially, and 1915. So it was three years --

3 created three years after my research period. And, during

4 all of that time, it was part of Humboldt County, the land

5 was part of Humboldt County.

6 Q. Okay. Did you generally look at the vested --

7 Mr. Estill's vested proofs of appropriation that are in

8 Exhibits 1 through 16?

10 Q. Are the locations of these vested proofs

11 generally depicted on Exhibit Estill 39? And you can go

12 ahead and turn to that.

14 Q. And can you explain Exhibit 39 and did you create

15 it?

16 A. Yes. If you look at page one of Exhibit 39, 17 there is a green polygon, and that is the boundary of Buena

18 Vista Valley that was obtained from digital polygons that are

19 available from the Nevada State Engineer's office. And on --

20 over that polygon on a Google Earth image, I superimposed the

21 locations of the vested rights that are reflected in Exhibits

22 1 through 16 and I also added a couple of extra pins to the

23 north to indicate where Unionville and Kyle Hot Springs are.

24 Q. Okay. Did you prepare a report in this matter?

2 Q. And is that report marked Estill Exhibit 40?

4 Q. Okay. And, Mr. Price, if you would like to take

5 that out of the binder and set it to the side, that might

6 speed things up when you're flipping back and forth.

7 A. May I set the maps aside -- out too?

8 Q. That's fine. And, while we're going to go

9 through them later, does your report generally rely upon the

10 exhibits marked as Exhibits Estill 20 through 39?

11 A. I also relied on Exhibit 18. So the correct

12 answer is Exhibit 18 and 20 through 39.

13 Q. Okay. Do you have any changes to your report?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Are all -- Scratch that. For the purposes of

16 this case, when I talk about Mr. Estill's vested proofs, I'm

17 going to assume that we're all talking about those vested

18 proofs in Buena Vista Valley. Are you okay with that?

20 Q. Okay. Are all of Mr. Estill's vested proofs in

21 Buena Vista on public land?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In your report you mention a grazier. What is a

24 grazier? And that's g-r-a-z-i-e-r.

1 A. Thank you. A grazier is a person who owns the

2 livestock they graze. And, that's in contrast to a grazer, 3 who that is the actual livestock itself. And it's an

4 important concept both in terms of describing -- why you're

5 describing the livestock and why you're describing the

6 grazier. And, even in the grazing services correspondence, 7 they always sign it regional grazier or state grazier or

8 whatever. It was a very important term to make that

9 distinction.

10 Q. Okay. Do you know who is the authorized grazier

11 in the Rochester and Copper Kettle allotment today?

13 Q. And who is that?

14 A. Me Estill, Mr. James Estill.

15 Q. Okay. Can you tell us historically how public

16 land grazing permits transferred?

17 A. Public land grazing permits didn't exist before

18 the Taylor Grazing Act. And that was passed in about 1935.

19 I've actually seen historical research where the grazing

20 service, which is the agency that administered that, did --

21 started doing interviews about 1928 in anticipation of the

22 passage of the Taylor Grazing Act.

23 Before that time, the public lands were open and

24 available to anyone, any grazier that could bring their

1 livestock anywhere and try to graze there. And it was a very

2 contested issue having to do with those privileges. But they

3 were transferred from person to person usually out on the

4 public range itself. But sometimes by a show of force.

5 Q. And how are grazing permits transferred today

6 under the Bureau of Land Management?

7 A. Through application and administrative approval

8 on the part of the Bureau of Land Management.

9 Q. Okay. Using Exhibit 39, can you tell us where

10 the Anderson Ranch is located in relation to the Buena Vista

11 Valley?

12 A. Yes. Looking at page one of Exhibit 39. And one

13 of the icons at the very southern end of the Buena Vista

14 Valley is 309782, Welsh Spring, which is just inside Buena

15 Vista Valley. The Anderson Ranch is about a mile and a half

16 south of there outside of the perimeter of Buena Vista

17 Valley.

18 Q. South of the pin for Welsh Springs or south of, 19 say, the number seven on the map?

20 A. South of the perimeter, green perimeter.

21 Q. Okay. And is Lovelock on this map as well?

22 A. Lovelock, yes. There's no pin for Lovelock, but

23 it's located due west of Buena Vista Valley, right along

24 Interstate 80. In fact, there's -- the label for Antelope

1 Spring, V09884, Antelope Spring passes right through the

2 Lovelock valley.

3 Q. So it's the green area along I-80 to the west of

4 Buena Vista Valley?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. All right. Using Exhibit 39, can you

7 generally explain how the Springers ran their livestock?

8 A. Yes. The Springers came in to Unionville before

9 1880 and they had residences in Unionville proper and they

10 also acquired about the same time Kyle Hot Springs. That was

11 one of their bases of operation. The other base of operation

12 was down in the Fallon area, somewhere between Stillwater and

13 Fallon, which shows on the southern portion of this map. The

14 white area between Buena Vista Valley and the Fallon

15 Stillwater area is what they called the Humboldt sink we call

16 it today. And this is where the 40-mile desert was that the

17 immigrants came through when they were leaving Lovelock.

18 Q. Okay. And then can you generally explain how the

19 Welshes ran their livestock?

20 A. The Welshes had residential lots in Lovelock and

21 they also had a farm property just to the north of Lovelock, 22 which would have been up in that green area just to the north

23 of I-80 there. And then they would have run from there to

24 the east in to Buena Vista Valley. Well, it says they would

1 have gone southeast to what the Welsh Canyon was south of the

2 Buena Vista Valley and they filter from there north and range

3 that entire area in the vicinity of what's now called the

4 Anderson Ranch.

5 Q. Okay. So is Welsh Canyon Creek the same as the

6 Anderson Ranch --

8 Q. -- in the historical documents?

10 Q. Okay. In your opinion, were Springer and Welsh

11 grazing in the Buena Vista Valley at the same time?

13 Q. Okay. So, to understand the basis for your

14 opinion, we're going to walk through a timeline. Can you

15 please turn to Exhibit Estill 25. And this is starting in

16 1880. So can you tell us what Exhibit Estill 25 shows us?

17 A. Estill 25, page one, is the 19 -- Excuse me --

18 the 1880 census sheet for part of the -- I'm trying to figure

19 out if they called it a town site or a district. But they

20 just said -- At the top it says Unionville upper town. And

21 it was conducted on the -- The people were enumerated on the

22 20th day of June 1880. And the top line of the page shows

23 the Springer family, Josiah Springer was the head of the

24 household and he was a teamster. There was someone there

1 keeping house. EP Springer, I don't know who that was. Ah, 2 I do know who that is. I just figured that out. And then

3 the children below that, RFM, Alice. You can almost read

4 some of their names. There were nine children. There were

5 four daughters and five sons.

6 Q. Okay. So this was in Unionville?

7 A. In Unionville, yes.

8 Q. Okay. So then looking at Exhibits Estill 26 and

9 27, can you tell us what was going on in 1881?

10 A. Exhibit Estill 26 are taxes that were paid in

11 1881. These books are in large ledgers and there's two parts

12 to them. So, in order to find out who paid what, you look at

13 the left-hand side of the ledger. But the right-hand side of

14 the ledger will tell you when they paid it. This was in

15 1881.

16 Most of these have the county at the top, but

17 this one does not. But this was from Churchill County

18 records. And you'll see at the top of the page, page one in

19 other words, the Springer and Bailey paid taxes on the lower

20 sink ranch with 500 cattle, some horses and some hogs.

21 Q. Okay. And then what about Exhibit 27?

22 A. Exhibit 27, again 1881, again Churchill County

23 records, shows at the bottom of page 40 that Robert Welsh

24 paid tax on a possessory claim with improvements, six horses, 1 one cow, 1,900 sheep, and a wagon.

2 Q. So, in 1881, Mr. Springer and Welsh were both

3 paying taxes in Churchill County?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. Now, looking at Exhibits 28 and 29, can

6 you tell us what was going on a few years later in 1893?

7 A. Yes. This is page 84 from the assessment book

8 from Churchill County…