Attch 1 Presolicitation Conference Transcript 30 Nov 09.pdf

30 NOV 09 Akutan Harbor Pre- Solicitation Conference

MIDNIGHT SUN COURT REPORTERS (907) 258-7100

6 AKUTAN HARBOR PRE-SOLICITATION CONFERENCE

Taken November 30, 2009

8 Commencing at 9:05 a.m.

9 Volume I - Pages 1 - 46, inclusive

Taken at

12 Denali Commission

510 L Street, Suite 410

13 Anchorage, Alaska

21 Reported by:

Mary A. Vavrik, RMR

Attachment 1

2 (Pages 2 to 5)

1 A-P-P-E-A-R-A-N-C-E-S 2 For U.S. Army Corps of Engineers:

3 Tina McMaster-Goering

Project Manager

Merlin Peterson 5 Designer 6 Dee Ginter

Co-Designer

Bret Walters 8 Environmental Engineer 9 Gregory Carpenter

Geotechnical Engineer

Dennis Hardy 11 Civil Engineer 12 Karl Harvey

Cost Engineer

Christine Dale 14 Contracting Officer 15 Yolanda Ikner

Contracting Officer

Jessica Parker 17 Intern 18 Taken by:

19 Mary A. Vavrik, RMR 20 BE IT KNOWN that the aforementioned proceedings were 21 taken at the time and place duly noted on the title 22 page, before Mary A. Vavrik, Registered Merit 23 Reporter and Notary Public within and for the State 24 of Alaska.

1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 MS. TINA MCMASTER-GOERING: All 3 right. My name is Tina McMaster-Goering. I'm the 4 project manager with the Corps of Engineers. The 5 reason we're all here today is a presolicitation 6 briefing on Akutan Harbor. Kind of the purpose of 7 the meeting is to gain input from industry, and I'm 8 really excited about all the people we have in the 9 room as well as on the phone. So we definitely want 10 to hear from you.

11 Hopefully everybody has had a chance to 12 review the draft plans and specs that are out there 13 on the website. We do want your input on that, and 14 that's kind of the point of the meeting is to gather 15 that and be able to incorporate it and help expedite 16 our whole process.

17 Just to let you know, currently this is -- 18 this is going out as an RFP. The schedule is, we 19 are anticipating advertising 15 December. Proposals 20 will be due January 15th. And we are looking at 21 awarding towards the end of February.

22 From the Corps we have our design engineer, 23 Merlin Peterson, and Dee Ginter, if I'm saying your 24 name right, Dee. These are our technical folks.

25 I've got Bret Walters from environmental

1 engineering. I have Greg Carpenter, geotech. I

2 have our contracting folks here.

3 MS. CHRISTINE DALE: Christine Dale.

4 MS. YOLANDA IKNER: Yolanda Ikner.

5 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: We are not

6 going to go around and do formal introductions just

7 because of the time constraint that we are under. I

8 am going to go ahead and turn this over to our

9 technical engineers to talk about the project

10 briefly and kind of anything unusual as far as

11 sequencing of the construction and just things to

12 keep an eye out that some of you may have already

13 noticed. So Merlin, go ahead.

14 MR. MERLIN PETERSON: As you probably

15 noticed from the plans, this one is going to be an

16 uplands harbor construction project. Whereas

17 normally we build a harbor out in the water, we are

18 pretty much going to make land into a harbor. So

19 lots of dredging on this one. The -- I guess the

20 estimated quantity for dredging is going to be about

21 960,000 yards.

22 One of the particular environmental

23 requirements for this project is that the basin will

24 have to be completed first, so that will pose some

25 problems with dredging since you are not going to be

1 able to access it from the water initially.

2 Let's see. The other is that this area is

3 very constrained as far as access is concerned.

4 There is not going to be a whole lot for staging.

5 As stated on the drawings, there is no staging area

6 for this project. It's defined by the contract.

7 Let's see. What else is there? The other

8 somewhat unusual thing is we are going to be

9 dredging under the breakwaters, so you dredge first

10 and then have armor and core and B-rock placements

11 for the breakwaters.

12 What else is there? There is also to be a

13 diversion of a small creek at the south -- southwest

14 corner of the dredge stockpile, or excavation

15 stockpile, actually.

16 It's a fairly small stream. It's another

17 environmental requirement to keep pretty much all

18 the water that you are going to have to, I guess, 19 pull out of the dredge material out of the fresh

20 water streams to the north and the south. Those

21 would be Rust Creek to the north and South Creek to

22 the south.

23 Another interesting environmental aspect is

24 a requirement for full depth silt curtains to be

25 placed for dredging and rock placement. So that's

3 (Pages 6 to 9)

1 going to be kind of interesting. I'm interested in 2 your comments especially for that one. We have 3 never had to do that before, so -- can you think of 4 anything else?

5 MS. DEE GINTER: (Shakes head.) No.

6 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: All right, 7 Merlin. Thanks. Bret, if you could say just a few 8 words about contaminated material that we may be 9 anticipating.

10 MR. BRET WALTERS: Along the beach 11 berm there are several isolated areas where we have 12 identified small amounts of contamination, so this 13 is petroleum and lubricant type contamination where 14 we believe people who had -- 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Can you put 16 the speaker closer to him? We can't hardly hear him 17 on the phone.

18 MR. WALTERS: There are several 19 isolated spots along the beach berm that have 20 isolated contamination, and the contamination that 21 we have found so far is limited to petroleum, and 22 what we believe the source is is marine-based 23 activities where people had, like, fish processing 24 facilities and stuff, would bring stuff to shore, 25 dig a little pit, fill them with garbage, pour some

1 fuel on it and light it on fire. So we are

2 estimating about a couple hundred cubic yards of

3 fuel oil contaminated soil in several isolated areas

4 that will have to be dealt with. And I'm willing to

5 answer questions on that whenever they come up.

6 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Okay. So

7 let's open it up to industry and try to keep it in

8 somewhat of an orderly --

9 MS. DALE: I think first let's --

10 there were some new people who joined on the line.

11 Can we get your names and your company's names?

12 (Off the record.)

13 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Okay. So

14 let's open it up to questions and discussions.

15 MS. DALE: The purpose of this

16 meeting is if you have any -- anything -- if you

17 have had a chance to look at the specs and see if

18 that -- there are any questions in the specs, this

19 is a good time to start asking questions on them, or

20 the drawings. We would like to kind of get your

21 input. Like we did if you have worked on any of our

22 dredging ones, we would open it up to industry to

23 kind of get some comments. Maybe we are not on the

24 right approach on things. So this is a good time

25 for you guys to give us some of your own experience

1 and guidance on some of this stuff, too.

2 Mr. LEN JUHNKE: You said there is 3 contaminated spots on the beach. What's the 4 disposal plan for those?

5 MR. WALTERS: It would just be 6 excavation, segregation of the contaminated 7 material, separation from some debris that might be 8 mixed with it, and disposal at a permitted -- lined 9 permitted facility.

10 MR. JUHNKE: Lined permanent 11 facility.

12 MR. WALTERS: Permitted, meaning they 13 can accept fuel oil contaminated soil.

14 MR. JUHNKE: So it's got to be barged 15 out of there?

16 MR. WALTERS: Barged out, yes.

17 MR. JUHNKE: Okay. You indicated 18 that the silt curtain would be full length. How big 19 is the tide at Akutan?

20 MR. PETERSON: The difference between 21 mean low and mean high or high is about four feet 22 with a maximum -- maximum tides, I believe, are 23 minus three to plus seven, so -- 24 MR. JUHNKE: I don't know what you 25 mean by a full-length silt curtain, but you are not

1 going to put a silt curtain in without -- and stop 2 the tide. A silt curtain cannot go all the way to 3 the bottom. We have tried it and ripped them up 4 many times in the past, and so please be aware that 5 you are asking for an impossibility if it's to the 6 bottom.

7 MR. PETERSON: Again, that's -- it's 8 not the way we have typically done it, but that's an 9 environmental requirement. There is -- there is no 10 way of getting around it. That's -- I don't like it 11 any more than you do.

12 MR. JASON DAVIS: Is the intent of 13 the silt curtain to close off the harbor after it's 14 excavated while those breakwaters are going in or 15 just to isolate that breakwater area?

16 MR. PETERSON: The purpose is to 17 prevent any sediment laden water from pretty much 18 getting into the bay. So they are trying -- the 19 idea is to try and prevent that sediment that we are 20 going to be putting into the water column from 21 traveling pretty much outside of the construction 22 limits.

23 MR. SAM ROBERT: Do you have any 24 formal site visit scheduled for the site?

25 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: I don't

4 (Pages 10 to 13)

1 believe so.

2 MR. WILLIAM HANSEN: You mentioned

3 that the excavation had to be done first. Can it be

4 done concurrently with the riprap or armor stone?

5 Can it be done concurrently with excavation?

6 MR. PETERSON: Our environmental

7 requirements require us to have the basin area

8 complete. That would be excavation and slope

9 protection prior to entrance channel excavation. So

10 in other words, I mean, pretty much the entire basin

11 area would have to be finished, so --

12 MR. CHRIS WILLIS: I don't have the

13 draft specs in front of me. Could you just remind

14 us what the work schedule is? You gave us the bid

15 schedule. What are the dates regarding the work?

16 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Talking how

17 many -- how many days after Notice to Proceed? Is

18 everybody still there?

19 MR. WILLIS: Yeah.

20 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Okay. We had

21 a very strange noise. Are you looking for days to

22 construct after Notice to Proceed? I'm not sure

23 what the question was, but if you are looking for

24 something like that, I know the draft -- the draft

25 plans and specs that you guys got had, like, 400 and

1 some days in it. That was based on kind of just

2 looking when we were going to have an

3 excavation-only type project.

4 We are looking at awarding this end of

5 February, looking at construction being complete in

6 the fall of 2012. So I think if you run the

7 numbers, it's -- it's over 900 days. 940 days. I

8 would like to maybe hear some -- some input on that, 9 if you guys think that's not enough time, or -- or

10 too much time.

11 MR. DAVIS: Are there window

12 restrictions or eider duck restrictions, any time

13 that we can't be working in the water or in the

14 harbor?

15 MR. WALTERS: Yes, there are. I'm

16 trying to look for those now. Do you know where

17 those are, Merlin?

18 MR. PETERSON: Special items.

19 MR. WALTERS: They are in the special

20 items section, I guess. There are some limitations

21 on the in-water work, and they are identified in

22 there. I don't want to quote them here without

23 reading them, and I didn't bring that part with me.

24 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: It may be in

25 here, Bret.

1 MR. GREGORY CARPENTER: I was just

2 asking if it -- if it inhibited work in the basin

3 itself. And the answer was no, I think.

4 MR. WILLIS: I have some questions

5 about the funding for this project. Is this project

6 fully funded for each year of the anticipated

7 schedule, or is it going to be where it's only

8 funded up to so much for one year and funded up to

9 so much for the second year and the contractor may

10 have to stop because of funding, blah, blah, blah, 11 blah?

12 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: We would have

13 all funding in place prior to award.

14 MR. JOHN MCAMIS: I understand the

15 basin -- I haven't seen the drawings or the

16 specifications all, either, yet. The basin for the

17 excavating first, slope protection goes on the

18 basin, the breakwaters are built, and then the

19 entrance channel is to be dredged, is that correct?

20 MR. PETERSON: No. The -- the basin

21 has to be excavated first, and then the slope

22 protection has to be placed. And then the entrance

23 channel can be dredged, and then breakwaters can be

24 placed.

25 MR. MCAMIS: And I know somebody

1 asked if this could be done concurrently, the 2 breakwater construction with the excavation or not.

3 MR. PETERSON: With the entrance 4 channel excavation?

5 MR. MCAMIS: And the basin 6 excavation, can it be done concurrently?

7 MR. PETERSON: No. Our environmental 8 requirements are such that the basin excavation has 9 to be completed prior to the entrance channel 10 excavation.

11 MR. JUHNKE: What's the rock size on 12 the breakwaters? Okay. It's in the plans.

13 MR. WALTERS: I have those work 14 windows here that I can read from here. The first 15 one is the harbor basin shall be excavated and slope 16 protection placed while totally isolated from Akutan 17 Harbor. The entrance channel shall be excavated 18 after the harbor basin construction operations are 19 complete. Breaching of the harbor basin is only 20 permitted between 15 June and 15 November. So 21 that's the breaching of the harbor basin to Akutan 22 Bay.

23 MS. GINTER: And that's in the 24 environmental spec.

25 MR. WALTERS: Yes. There is another

5 (Pages 14 to 17)

1 one here. Other offshore excavation and breakwater

2 construction is only permitted between 30 March and

3 15 November. Full depth silt curtains are required

4 for excavation during this period, but not for

5 breakwater construction. Does that make sense?

6 Everybody hear that?

7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We heard it, 8 but could you repeat it?

9 MS. DALE: And afterwards, we will be

10 putting out in Fed Biz Ops the minutes to this

11 meeting, so that way everyone will have an

12 opportunity to -- if they didn't catch everything

13 during this meeting, they will have it afterwards.

14 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: So does the

15 940 days sound like that would be enough time? Does

16 anybody have a feel for that?

17 MR. BRYCE ERICKSON: That's plenty.

18 I think it's plenty.

19 MS. DALE: And everyone does realize

20 this is a remote site.

21 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Anybody have

22 any questions about accommodations out there?

23 MR. DAVIS: There aren't any, are

24 there?

25 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: I can give you

1 a contact at Trident Seafood. They have a large 2 camp out there. His name is Steve Francis. He is 3 in Akutan. The number is (907) 698-2211.

4 MR. MIKE WASGATT: You said there is 5 no -- there is no staging area on the site, but in 6 the specs there are some pretty specific 7 requirements for the accommodations for the 8 engineers and such, the four engineers. Is that to 9 be assumed that that would be at the Trident 10 facility, then?

11 MR. PETERSON: Pretty much I think 12 there was an on-site requirement for that, but I 13 believe it's been removed. That could be -- it's 14 not limited to just the Trident area. I mean, there 15 are other places within with the City of Akutan, or 16 if the contractor wishes to have a camp on site, 17 that is still open to you. Does that answer your 18 question?

19 MR. WASGATT: Yes.

20 MR. HANSEN: I've seen a requirement 21 that the COR has to be on site. Without him being 22 on site, where there is no COR, how restrictive is 23 that if the -- if their facility is over at the -- 24 maybe Akutan, the seafoods place or something 25 like that, does he have to be on -- right on site

1 or -- 2 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Could I ask 3 for a clarification? Are you talking about the 4 contractor's quality control person?

5 MR. HANSEN: No, the COR.

6 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: The 7 government's representative?

8 MR. HANSEN: Yes.

9 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: We have 10 wordage in here that says if the government 11 representative isn't on site, no work can take 12 place.

13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's on every 14 contract.

15 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: I'm coming 16 from military construction, so I'm -- that's a 17 little different.

18 MR. PETERSON: Normally this is, 19 again, left up to the discretion of the contracting 20 officer's representative, but normally it's -- as 21 long as they are around, I wouldn't think that it 22 would be shut off if they go back to the -- their 23 accommodations for an hour or so.

24 MR. DAN HALL: Unless they get stuck 25 for a week.

1 MR. PETERSON: And they normally do 2 try to have someone there all the time, so 3 sometimes -- even two if there is -- 4 MR. PAUL JOHNSON: How are they going 5 to get back and forth? Are they going to have to 6 furnish a boat to get them back and forth or is the 7 Corps going to furnish their own or what?

8 MR. PETERSON: I believe that is one 9 of the requirements of the contract, that the 10 contractor has to furnish a boat for the contracting 11 officer's representative.

12 MR. ROBERT: It looks like in the 13 quality control requirements for personnel 14 requirements, that it listed a design quality 15 manager. And I was thinking that shouldn't be a 16 requirement for this project.

17 MS. GINTER: I think that's being 18 edited out.

19 MR. WILLIS: Are there any designated 20 or any areas regarding rock sources that are going 21 to be put in the documents?

22 MR. PETERSON: No. We won't be 23 designating any rock sources. We are only going to 24 designate rock quality, so it will be left up to the 25 contractor to provide rock that -- in that quantity

6 (Pages 18 to 21)

1 and those specifications for quality and size.

2 MR. JIM GALLI: A follow up on that.

3 Which freeze/thaw specs are going to be required, 4 the NPD or the ASTM, do you know?

5 MR. PETERSON: I believe it's ASTM, 6 but give us a minute and we will take a look at it

7 and see what's in the specs right now.

8 MR. DUDLEY ORR: This job that you

9 said 940 days go through multiple fiscal years. Is

10 there any restriction on the amount of money that we

11 can earn in a particular year?

12 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Just on how

13 much work you complete that year. We would pay you

14 for the work that you complete.

15 MR. ORR: Okay. I have seen

16 contracts in the past that limit the amount of work

17 that a contractor can do per fiscal year.

18 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Again, we

19 would have all the funding at the time of award, so

20 we wouldn't be waiting on funding for you to do

21 work.

22 MR. WILLIS: Since this is a

23 presolicitation notice and you are trying to get

24 feedback from contractors, one of my understandings

25 in the industry is that there has always been issues

1 between contractors and the Army Corps of Engineers

2 over this issue of rock quality and size of rock and

3 things like that.

4 So would the Corps tend to give us some

5 comments regarding, you know, what -- what happened

6 on previous jobs with the breakwaters and rock and

7 what your current, you know, specifications and what

8 you are looking for in terms of this rock? Because

9 I know that, you know, within the industry it's

10 known that kind of the rock and the Corps of

11 Engineers and the contractors as being kind of an

12 issue, so would you care to comment on that so you

13 can get some industry feedback?

14 MR. CARPENTER: I think -- I don't

15 think there is any doubt about the weight of the

16 rock and what the spec says. You know, if you need

17 100- to 200-pound rock, that's what it is. And we

18 will check -- we will do some checks on gradations

19 to see that you are meeting those gradations.

20 As far as the quality testing, historically

21 there are some quarries that have in the past met

22 those quality designations. Ones that come to mind

23 that are close to this project are the quarry at

24 Unalaska, Unadaga, the quarry at Sand Point, and

25 there may be some others. We will require the --

1 the laboratory quality testing that's in the spec 2 be, you know -- that we have that before you start 3 placing rock. So I mean, I think it's pretty 4 descriptive.

5 Usually -- usually the hardest -- the 6 hardest test to meet is -- the freeze/thaw test is 7 usually the most difficult, I think, from what I've 8 seen. Some -- sometimes the glycol test can be 9 difficult, also. I don't know if that answered your 10 question or not, but -- 11 MR. PETERSON: Also to follow up on 12 the previous question about the freeze/thaw testing, 13 it will be the ASTM method that will be required for 14 this project.

15 MR. CARPENTER: To further discuss 16 that a little bit, what Merlin just brought up about 17 the ASTM method, keep in mind that that test 18 requires about 90 days to do, and there is no lab in 19 the state of Alaska that can do it. I think there 20 is only about eight in the country that are Corps 21 certified labs to do that test.

22 MR. GALLI: It's over 100 days. It's 23 100 samples, 100 days.

24 MR. CARPENTER: Okay. It's got a 25 long lead time. That's all I was trying to point

1 out.

2 MR. GALLI: That's why I asked the 3 question.

4 MR. PETERSON: I've just been 5 reminded about another special environmental 6 restriction that I should bring up. It's been -- 7 well, the environmental agencies want us to limit 8 barges being beached to less than -- well, less than 9 or equal to 13 consecutive days at any one time.

10 MR. JUHNKE: Are you saying that a 11 barge, but that you can only beach 13 days?

12 MR. PETERSON: Yeah. A barge can 13 only be beached for 13 days.

14 MR. JUHNKE: A barge. What if you 15 have got multiple barges coming in?

16 MR. PETERSON: Then I guess it would 17 apply for each barge.

18 MR. WALTERS: Each barge would have a 19 maximum 13-day-on-the-beach limit.

20 MR. HALL: Consecutive days?

21 MR. PETERSON: Consecutive days.

22 MR. JOHNSON: Then if you back it off 23 for an hour, you can go back?

24 MS. GINTER: Right.

25 MR. PETERSON: That would meet the

7 (Pages 22 to 25)

1 requirements.

2 MR. WALTERS: That has to do with 3 state permitting for uses of tidelands, and that's 4 what we had to agree to.

5 MR. JUHNKE: So any specific location 6 that you cannot beach at?

7 MR. PETERSON: The only locations 8 that are -- well, you are prohibited from any 9 construction activity, which would include barge 10 landings, outside of the construction limits. So 11 only that area of the beach within the construction 12 limits. That would be your only area to beach your 13 barges.

14 MR. JUHNKE: Your construction limits 15 do not go down to the beach, do not include them.

16 MR. PETERSON: From this area to the 17 north where the breakwaters extend out, the 18 construction limits cross the beach there and there 19 [indicating].

20 MR. JUHNKE: Just at the entrance, in 21 other words.

22 MR. PETERSON: Pretty much just to 23 the north and the south of the breakwaters.

24 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Merlin, did 25 you already cover any limitations we have on

1 equipment that they can use for the excavation? Did

2 I miss that or --

3 MS. GINTER: In the specs as they

4 are, it notes that excavation can only be performed

5 with a clamshell or an excavator. And that's been

6 changed to read that excavation may not be performed

7 with a hydraulic dredge. So we have opened up the

8 types of equipment, but there is no hydraulic

9 dredging equipment allowed. And that's -- correct

10 me -- that's because of lack of space for

11 dewatering.

12 MR. WILLIS: You mentioned this was

13 going to be an RFP rather than a straight bid. So

14 what sort of documentation are you going to be

15 wanting with the RFP? Is it qualification type

16 data, previous job experience based on the RFP, 17 rather than a bid?

18 MS. DALE: What it is, this is going

19 to be -- first of all, they will look at it, see if

20 you are technically acceptable, and then it will be

21 based off of price.

22 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Is it best

23 value, though? I think -- we will talk, but --

24 MS. DALE: Okay. We are not quite

25 sure, haven't quite agreed on everything yet on the

1 team yet, but what we are going to be doing is

2 looking at your proposals.

3 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: There will be

4 the criteria -- I think the draft RFP that you guys

5 have now has some, like, Volume 1 and Volume 2

6 submittal requirements in it. Did they not get

7 that? Okay. There will be -- in the RFP, though, 8 there will be the requirements for what we want you

9 to submit for.

10 MS. DALE: A technical book and a

11 price book.

12 MR. WILLIS: But that's -- a

13 follow-on question here, but that's a big

14 distinction between because you know there is an RFP

15 where you put in and you are deemed technically

16 adequate and then it goes to, you know, who is the

17 low bid; and then there is the other thing, which is

18 best value. I mean, there is a distinction between

19 those two methods which, listening to the

20 conversation just now, it doesn't seem like the

21 Corps has yet decided which method you are going to

22 use.

23 MS. DALE: At this time we haven't

24 quite made that determination, so --

25 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: It's either

1 going to be best value or technically acceptable.

2 MS. DALE: And we will be deciding 3 that in the next couple weeks here before we put it 4 out.

5 MR. KELLY PLEAS: You have the 6 ability to ask for a best and final after all the 7 submittals are in? That's usually an RFP, right?

8 MS. DALE: That's an RFP, yes. If we 9 deem it necessary, we can ask for best and final.

10 If everything -- when we are looking at everything 11 and that we have no questions or any clarifications, 12 we can go with what we receive, also, at that time.

13 And this is a firm fixed price.

14 MR. WILLIS: What makes -- what's 15 your decision points regarding a best value or a 16 technically acceptable? I mean, you have the 17 industry here listening on the phone kind of trying 18 to understand what -- why you go one way or the 19 other. I mean, in this bidding environment, 20 technically acceptable, it's going to take time and 21 money to put a bid together for this.

22 MS. DALE: When we do best value, we 23 are trying to get the most for -- the most for our 24 bucks. And someone may have a better way of 25 accomplishing and getting the work done. And

8 (Pages 26 to 29)

1 technically acceptable just means that you are -- 2 you are qualified to do the job, and what you have 3 given us shows us that you are capable of doing it;

4 where best value goes more into wanting a certain 5 job a certain way, and we are trying to -- the 6 person has given us the best value for our money.

7 And that's why we are going that way.

8 MR. WILLIS: But with a job with this 9 many constraints on it in terms of schedule, method, 10 environmental, you have already told us the way it 11 should be done and the sequence. It doesn't really 12 allow the contractor too much leeway in terms of 13 means and methods or innovation. So wouldn't that 14 tend this one towards being a technically acceptable 15 rather than a best value?

16 MS. DALE: Like I said, we will 17 discuss this, you know, among our team members.

18 MR. DAVIS: The test requirement on 19 the rock, like you say, is a 100-day test. There is 20 limited places that can perform it. There are some 21 tests -- there are some pits that have been 22 acceptable in the past, but you are going to be 23 asking contractors to price this work based off 24 speculation. Is there any way you can prequalify 25 the number of the pits that have worked in the past

1 so that the contractors aren't taking that risk? I

2 mean, if it's worked in the past and we base a bid

3 on that and for some reason it doesn't meet the

4 specification now, the contractor would instantly be

5 in a pretty bad position on this project.

6 MR. CARPENTER: The intention here

7 was to get new test results for the material that's

8 going to be used. I understand where you are coming

9 from as far as the risk goes. There -- I mean, 10 there has been test results from those two pits that

11 I mentioned that I believe have -- have passed these

12 tests. Again, there is some risk. Stuff can change

13 in these quarries.

14 MR. DAVIS: Would you be willing to

15 prequalify those quarries and then require that the

16 tests be done on the newly mined rock that will be

17 used and if it doesn't pass, that would be a change

18 order condition where the Corps would keep the risk?

19 By doing that, you eliminate the contractor's risk

20 at bid time and should get better pricing.

21 MR. CARPENTER: I think that's

22 something we can discuss. I wouldn't lean toward

23 that myself. I understand decreasing the

24 contractor's risk as much as you can, but I don't

25 think I would lean toward that.

1 MR. JOHNSON: Don't you think that by

2 doing it that way, though, that you would get a more

3 realistic bid out of this thing and we wouldn't have

4 to start guessing at things? I mean, it would

5 probably reduce the price of the contract.

6 MR. CARPENTER: I think in a lot

7 of -- on a lot of projects I think that's true.

8 This one has got a pretty darn small rock quantity.

9 And --

10 MR. DAVIS: It's a small rock

11 quantity, but it's way the hell out on the chain, 12 and if you plan on bringing something from Dutch

13 Harbor or Sand Point, you end up bringing it out of

14 Washington. So it's going to be a pretty expensive

15 endeavor, even for a small quantity.

16 MR. CARPENTER: Let me -- let me just

17 say this: A project that was just completed in

18 Unalaska used rock from Unalaska and met these test

19 results. And that's the closest source. I don't

20 know what more I can say.

21 MR. WILLIS: That was the Dutra job

22 at the Carl E. Moses breakwater?

23 MR. CARPENTER: That's correct.

24 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Anybody else

25 have anything, or are we kind of winding down?

1 MR. JUHNKE: The drawings show a foot 2 topsoil required on the side slopes of the disposal 3 site. Is there a specification or is there topsoil 4 available on site, or is there a spec in your 5 specifications for topsoil?

6 MR. PETERSON: There is a 7 specification for that within the specs.

8 MR. JUHNKE: Okay.

9 MR. PETERSON: We were assuming that 10 a lot of the overburden material from the excavation 11 area would be suitable for that material. I'm sure 12 that not all of it will meet the spec, but the -- 13 there is a very significant quantity that will have 14 to be removed, so I'm sure that -- 15 MR. JUHNKE: Okay.

16 MR. PETERSON: -- it will probably be 17 more than enough.

18 MR. ROBERT: Maybe I just missed it 19 in the first review, but you mentioned that suction 20 dredge is not going to be allowed in the excavation 21 specs. Were the -- was the excavation specs in 22 the -- in the draft documents? I saw the seeding 23 and the contaminated material and soils report, but 24 maybe I just missed the excavation specifications 25 section.

9 (Pages 30 to 33)

1 MS. GINTER: It's in the earth works

2 spec, Division 31. Section 31.3.0000.29.

3 MR. ROBERT: And that was included

4 with the draft, is that correct?

5 MS. GINTER: It's in my package. I

6 haven't --

7 MS. DALE: We uploaded exactly what

8 was -- the whole specs that was given.

9 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Excavation and

10 fill. What was that section, Dee, again, that you

11 called out? I'm sorry. 31.23?

12 MS. GINTER: I just quoted the one

13 for the traffic. Just a second. Here it is.

14 31.23.

15 MR. ROBERT: Okay. I found it.

16 Thank you.

17 MS. DALE: And it was included in

18 what was put on the Web.

19 MR. ROBERT: And you said that you

20 are going to change that to not allow a suction

21 dredge, is that correct?

22 MS. GINTER: Yeah. Right now under

23 that spec it says the only acceptable equipment

24 shall be clamshell or excavator. And that's going

25 to be changed just to say that no excavation shall

1 be performed with hydraulic dredging equipment.

2 MR. ROBERT: Okay. Because the 3 geotechnical report specifically states that -- that 4 the site is best accomplished with a suction dredge.

5 MR. CARPENTER: And I think I would 6 agree with that in some respects. The problem -- 7 there is two issues. One is the constraints of the 8 site really don't allow us a big area where we could 9 dewater material. The second one is we are afraid 10 of any contamination that's there on the beach from 11 burning trash. We are afraid of sucking hard enough 12 in that basin to pull some of that contamination 13 over there and then spreading it all over with -- 14 with this dredge material. Without those two 15 constraints, I would agree with you. I think you 16 could go in there and suck this basin out pretty 17 quick.

18 MR. MCAMIS: The timeline is 15 19 December you assume you will have final 20 specifications out, and they're due January 15th.

21 With the Christmas holidays and the breaks coming 22 on, is that an unrealistic date? It seems to me 23 that to write a proper RFP, it doesn't give me much 24 time to address everything that has to be addressed 25 and get that in by January 15th. I'm wondering if

1 the 1st of February would be a more suitable date.

2 Since this is midwinter anyway, nothing is going to

3 start until early spring on this project.

4 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Unfortunately, 5 we are under the time constraints for the type of

6 funding that we have. We have to award this project

7 in February, and with having this be an RFP and

8 doing a source selection, we just -- we don't have

9 the time. And we lose this money if we do not award

10 on time.

11 MR. MCAMIS: So you are fairly

12 confident the final specifications will be out the

13 15th of December, then, without any revisions, then?

14 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Yes, yes.

15 MS. DALE: We anticipate having

16 the --

17 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Yes, we are.

18 MS. DALE: -- this on the street by

19 the 15th of December.

20 MR. MCAMIS: Okay. Thank you.

21 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: You will have

22 30 days. So we are not going to cut into that

23 30-day time if we -- it's the 16th or the 17th.

24 MR. PLEAS: I'd like to get back to

25 Leonard's comment on -- the silt curtains are going

1 to go to the bottom and hold back the tide; is that

2 what the answer was? I mean, you have got to allow

3 flow through the silt curtains. So you don't allow

4 it now, you are going to address it, then, in the

5 loss in flow, or what's the plan?

6 MR. PETERSON: Like I said, those are

7 our environmental requirements. I've never seen it

8 done this way before, so --

9 MR. JUHNKE: You said, though, that

10 the silt curtains were excluded from the breakwater

11 for construction.

12 MR. PETERSON: Yes.

13 MR. JUHNKE: But the dredging needs

14 them?

15 MR. PLEAS: The entrance channel;

16 that's the problem.

17 MR. JUHNKE: Impossible, unless you

18 build a structure, pile.

19 MR. WALTERS: I wasn't part of these

20 negotiations on how this worked out, but that's

21 what -- the agreement that was made with the State.

22 And I think what they are thinking is they can run a

23 chain along the bottom of the silt curtain and allow

24 that to move a little bit back and forth. I'm not

25 saying I agree with it. That's just the agreements

10 (Pages 34 to 37)

1 that have been made. I believe that's how the 2 discussion went.

3 MR. PLEAS: So let's take it from a 4 contractor's standpoint. So you are going to allow 5 flow through the bottom of the silt curtain, then?

6 MR. WALTERS: I don't want to say 7 that.

8 MR. PLEAS: Anyway, that's -- 9 MR. WALTERS: They asked for it to be 10 isolated from Akutan Bay and a silt curtain that 11 went all the way to the bottom. If we can somehow 12 make that work, we will do our best.

13 MR. MCAMIS: You can't affix it 14 because you have a sail, and if you have a sail you 15 have trapped everything, including the water. And I 16 agree with what Kelly said and what Leonard said.

17 We've been in the dredging business for 30-some 18 years, and you are not going to affix a silt curtain 19 without letting the flow go through it.

20 MR. WALTERS: And there is no one 21 here from the Corps who is arguing that, either.

22 MR. WILLIS: This is the basic 23 problem that I can't really get beyond. This is a 24 presolicitation notice where the intent of this 25 conference is to get feedback from the industry in

1 terms of how you can improve the specifications and 2 drawings, not only that you get quality of the work, 3 but that you get a quality contract that's going to 4 avoid conflict and legal fees and litigation in the 5 future.

6 You have brought up a -- you have brought 7 up a specification which it appears to be 8 unattainable. You are getting industry feedback 9 that it's unattainable, but all we are being told is 10 it can't be changed. And that's kind of what I 11 don't really understand.

12 MR. PETERSON: Well, the one thing 13 that this is doing for us is this is giving us your 14 feedback telling us that it is impossible. That's 15 what I'm assuming you guys are saying.

16 MR. JUHNKE: Correct.

17 MR. PETERSON: And we will be able to 18 use that in future contracts. We are stuck. We are 19 stuck with it as it is now. That's -- I -- I didn't 20 like this one myself. I tried to get it changed, 21 but I don't make the decision on this one.

22 MR. KARL HARVEY: I haven't read 23 this. Are there any -- are there any provisions 24 for, like, a performance type where the contractors 25 may be allowed to test -- test these waters and, you

1 know, maybe not have that full depth curtain but 2 meet a requirement and be able to prove it? I'm 3 just asking if that's in the environmental permits 4 at all now or is there any chance that it could be 5 to try to -- 6 MR. WALTERS: Given the time frame 7 that we have to award this, I can't make a statement 8 on that. Right now there is no provision for that.

9 MR. JUHNKE: Is there water quality 10 requirements?

11 MR. WALTERS: Yes. There is a 401 12 cert that's in -- it's the first attachment behind 13 the environmental protection section.

14 MR. JUHNKE: So if you need water 15 quality, it's irrelevant. You still got to have 16 your silt curtain.

17 MR. WALTERS: I have -- I have been 18 able to argue out of this on a couple of smaller 19 construction jobs. They have been trying to put 20 this into all of our construction contracts. This 21 is an older one that got through a few years ago, 22 and -- but I don't -- I don't know that we can 23 change it. I might try to give it another shot, but 24 I can't say that it's going to change.

25 MR. PLEAS: So what is the penalty

1 for -- for noncompliance of the silt curtain?

2 MR. WALTERS: What is the penalty? I 3 can't say what the penalty is.

4 MR. PLEAS: I mean, you shut the work 5 down?

6 MR. WALTERS: That could happen. I 7 think if it was impossible the State would flex -- 8 flex on that, but they would have to see it first.

9 MR. PLEAS: It would seem to me that 10 a reasonable interpretation of this would be it's 11 the silt plume that they are after, right?

12 MR. WALTERS: Yes.

13 MR. PLEAS: So if you allow flow and 14 the flow doesn't contain the silt because it's -- 15 it's isolated or it's down deep enough or whatever, 16 that that would be an acceptable solution, but I 17 mean, you can't -- I mean, if it is the only remedy 18 is shut the work down because you are not keeping 19 the silt curtain in place full depth, that's -- 20 that's really a tough one to bid.

21 MR. WALTERS: I didn't say that that 22 was the only remedy. I just said that that could 23 happen. And that has not happened on any job that 24 I'm aware of in the state of Alaska.

25 MR. HARVEY: Is it -- is it -- would

11 (Pages 38 to 41)

1 it be considerable, I mean, for the Corps to just 2 tell the contractors how to implement this? In 3 other words, just tell them you will use a silt 4 curtain and it will have a chain on the bottom of 5 it? I'm asking that to the bid -- the bidders.

6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Won't work.

7 MR. HARVEY: Pardon me?

8 MR. WALTERS: Would the bidders 9 prefer a prescriptive spec for compliance with this 10 contract, that we basically describe how that would 11 work? And then if it worked you would not -- if it 12 didn't work, that would be on us.

13 MR. JUHNKE: That would be something 14 we can bid on.

15 MR. HARVEY: Take the risk away and 16 just -- I'm not saying that's the solution, but I'm 17 just asking if that would, you know, alleviate some 18 of the unknowns during bid time.

19 MR. PLEAS: Absolutely.

20 MR. WALTERS: That may be in the 21 final. I can't say right now. See what we can work 22 out there.

23 MS. DALE: And we do thank you for 24 that information because -- so the question is is if 25 we are able to put that in there, would -- would it

1 make it biddable for you guys. That's the question 2 we have for you.

3 MR. JUHNKE: You can put a dollar 4 amount in your bid for it. You describe what you 5 want, and we will give you a price. Right?

6 MR. WALTERS: Now, what we have done 7 on historical ones -- this is another alternative, 8 and I'll ask you guys for feedback on this. What 9 we've done on other ones is put a certain depth.

10 Like if we were dredging to 20 feet, we can say that 11 the silt curtain had to extend to 15 feet. Would 12 that work?

13 MR. JUHNKE: Yeah, as long as there 14 is enough -- can allow the tidal flow to go in and 15 out.

16 MR. PLEAS: Yeah, that would be fine.

17 MR. WALTERS: Or maybe a spec that 18 said within five feet of the bottom.

19 MR. JUHNKE: The problem is is your 20 full length.

21 MR. WALTERS: I think I understand 22 the problem. What I'm trying to do is when I 23 approach the State about this, I want to have 24 options and as many options as I can to get them -- 25 they're more likely to agree to a change if they

1 have something to pick from.

2 MR. JUHNKE: Typically a silt curtain

3 is about ten foot in depth.

4 MR. WALTERS: So how about if it came

5 out with a requirement to within -- within no more

6 than ten feet of the bottom?

7 MR. JUHNKE: That would be fine.

8 MR. PLEAS: Yeah.

9 MR. WALTERS: Five feet would be

10 doable.

11 MR. PLEAS: Now you are pushing it.

12 No. I -- the -- if you want it on the bottom, 13 that's going to be --

14 MR. WALTERS: I don't want it on the

15 bottom.

16 MR. PLEAS: No, but I mean if the

17 State does, the argument would be that's going to

18 generate silt when it runs back and forth and maybe

19 even generate scour and a whole bunch of other

20 problems. So I think that lifting it off the bottom

21 is certainly very reasonable, and within ten feet of

22 the bottom is going to accomplish what you want.

23 MR. JUHNKE: If you get it too close

24 and you anchor it in, you are going to have scour

25 velocities going underneath whatever you have there.

2 MR. WALTERS: Right. Okay. Well, I 3 will try to get something different in the final.

4 No promises on that right now.

5 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Okay. Does 6 anybody have anything else?

7 MR. HARVEY: I've got one more thing.

8 Is there any -- and this is more for Merlin while 9 the industry is here. Is there any intention to 10 designate where the basin starts and stops, you 11 know, as far as -- because there is a restriction 12 that it has to be complete before you go to step B.

13 Do we have that in there? I didn't see it, but is 14 there -- 15 MR. JUHNKE: There is a line here 16 that shows entrance channel.

17 MR. HARVEY: So that's where we are 18 shooting for as far as the basin complete.

19 MR. JUHNKE: Because the breakwaters 20 stop at that point.

21 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

22 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Okay. Well, 23 if -- if there are no other comments or questions, I 24 think we are going to go ahead and adjourn.

25 MR. ORR: You did say there was no

12 (Pages 42 to 45)

1 organized site visit, right?

2 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Correct.

3 MR. ORR: In lieu of not having a 4 site visit, could you please describe the best way 5 to get there to look at this site in the dead of 6 winter?

7 MR. CARPENTER: Fly to Dutch and -- 8 and there is -- there is flights over there with a 9 Goose. They land in the water. There is no airport 10 over there. The other alternative, at some times of 11 the year -- and I'm not sure what the schedule is;

12 Trident would know right off, that number that they 13 gave you before for the guy at Trident. But they 14 run boats back and forth to Dutch. And if you have 15 got a strong stomach, you can do that. It can be 16 pretty rough.

17 MS. SHARON BOYETTE: This is Sharon 18 Boyette with the borough. If you do plan to go to 19 Akutan, you should call the city office and let them 20 know that you plan to come out. And if they can, 21 they will give you a hand with your arrangements 22 there.

23 MR. JUHNKE: You have a contact and 24 phone number?

25 MS. BOYETTE: The mayor's name is Joe

1 Bereskin. It's B-E-R-E-S-K-I-N. And I don't have 2 the city number, but if you call information and ask 3 for the City of Akutan, they will help you out.

4 MR. ORR: Is that -- is that 5 different than what the specs say, to contact Julie 6 Anderson?

7 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Yeah. Julie 8 Anderson is the previous project manager on this 9 project. I have Joe's telephone number back in my 10 office.

11 MR. ORR: Will you include that in an 12 e-mail with the minutes of the meeting, then?

13 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: I can do that.

14 MS. DALE: The point of contact for 15 doing the site visits will be from Tina, and she 16 will be able to provide you that information. And 17 we will put it in the -- on the Web, too.

18 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Yeah. I'll 19 put Joe's information out there. I mean -- and I'll 20 include my telephone number, but I -- I'm not going 21 to be able to get you out to Akutan.

22 MS. DALE: It's just a point of 23 contact to get info.

24 MR. PLEAS: I have one more question.

25 The boat that's required for the project work for

1 the Corps, it is just for seeing around the work and

2 everything; you are not planning on having that boat

3 be capable of going to Dutch Harbor, are you?

4 MS. BOYETTE: You can't do that.

5 MR. CARPENTER: No.

6 MR. PETERSON: The purpose of that

7 boat would just be to provide the -- the COR

8 transportation around the site and, if you so choose

9 to have your facilities in Akutan or at Trident, 10 transportation to and from.

11 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Any other

12 questions? Comments? Okay. Well, if that's it, 13 I'd like to thank everybody who showed up and called

14 in. We appreciate your input and your comments and

15 your questions.

16 MS. DALE: And if you have any

17 questions that may come up between -- in the next

18 day or two, you can e-mail them to me and we will

19 try to include them also in our minutes. My -- my

20 e-mail address is christine.a.dale@usace.army.mil.

21 And we will try to include those questions in our --

22 with the minutes, which will probably show up later, 23 by the end of the week.

24 MS. MCMASTER-GOERING: Okay. Thank

25 you, everyone.

1 MS. DALE: And if you haven't signed 2 in, please do sign in.

3 (Proceedings adjourned at 10:12 a.m.)

13 (Page 46)

1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

2 I, MARY A. VAVRIK, RMR, Notary Public in 3 and for the State of Alaska do hereby certify:

4 That the foregoing proceedings were taken 5 before me at the time and place herein set forth;

6 that the proceedings were reported stenographically 7 by me and later transcribed under my direction by 8 computer transcription; that the foregoing is a true 9 record of the proceedings taken at that time; and 10 that I am not a party to nor have I any interest in 11 the outcome of the action herein contained.

12 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto 13 subscribed my hand and affixed my seal this _____ 14 day of ______________ 2009.

16 _________________________

MARY A. VAVRIK,

17 Registered Merit Reporter

Notary Public for Alaska 19 My Commission Expires: November 5, 2012

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